tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post3313212580763760867..comments2023-10-17T02:44:03.005-07:00Comments on Animation writers: A few quick thoughts:Stevehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17349670871562090251noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-52687910213519655152007-03-26T17:36:00.000-07:002007-03-26T17:36:00.000-07:00Vincent Waller said... I think that is a terrif...Vincent Waller said...<BR/><BR/> I think that is a terrific answer. It's great that you appear to be open to critique.<BR/><BR/><I> Of course I am. I look at stuff I did a YEAR ago and cringe. Any time I get better, I get better because somebody took the time to show me something... or watched people better than I do things that I thought were inspiring. </I><BR/><BR/> But you could stop him from posting, as could the lady writing the book god awful book. The difference being, yours would only take one phone call to whichever studio owned the script. <BR/><BR/><I> Well, that's the problem, I suppose. I don't own the work I've done... different studios and/or networks do.<BR/><BR/>I have no control over that whatsoever. </I><BR/><BR/>Quickly thereafter he would have lawyers flying up his bum like monkeys after candied bananas.<BR/><BR/><I> Yeah, there is that. But I'm sure it would be considered by any court "fair commentary" but I'm sure he wants to be sued as much as he wants to work on a writer driven show.<BR/><BR/>And honestly, I don't want him to be sued for his opinion. I bear John no ill will. <BR/><BR/>My whole POV at this place isn't he's wrong... it's that there's a reality in place about how certain cartoons are created, and there has to be a better way to have a conversation about it with people who ALSO love the medium that aren't going anywhere.<BR/><BR/>Could he critique my work in a way that he could meet me the next day at a coffee house or a bar? If there was anything in that script he liked, would he point that out as well?<BR/><BR/>To have someone who did work I loved - those original Ren and Stimpy cartoons - point out how I could be a better animation professional, would be awesome.<BR/><BR/>If he can, then that would be constructive, and probably benefit me and everybody I work with. </I>Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17349670871562090251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-70318398825814342342007-03-26T17:20:00.000-07:002007-03-26T17:20:00.000-07:00I think that is a terrific answer. It's great that...I think that is a terrific answer. It's great that you appear to be open to critique.<BR/>But you could stop him from posting, as could the lady writing the book god awful book. The difference being, yours would only take one phone call to whichever studio owned the script. Quickly thereafter he would have lawyers flying up his bum like monkeys after candied bananas.Vincent Wallerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03505903461868673973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-22613661585185745492007-03-26T17:18:00.000-07:002007-03-26T17:18:00.000-07:00Andi; Interesting post. I'm going to move it t...Andi;<BR/><BR/> Interesting post. I'm going to move it to it's own topic, if you don't mind.<BR/> <BR/> - SteveStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17349670871562090251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-21010846821359160892007-03-26T17:03:00.000-07:002007-03-26T17:03:00.000-07:00Why do you consider calling an idiotic script "idi...Why do you consider calling an idiotic script "idiotic" personal? Its not personal, its business. Most of the scripts that come through the pipeline for animation are idiotic. Theres no way this topic would inspire such constant outcry from the artist community if it were all just a big personal vendetta. Artists are just tired of having to do all the heavy lifting. You can say "I love the artists I work with" all you want, but do you really do anything to make their jobs easier? Its a tough question to ask yourself and the author of this blog seems more interested in addressing their hurt feelings than the real topic at hand: why are most animation scripts so bad? Are the writers merely ignorant of the medium or are they just lazy?<BR/>If you happen to be a hardworking writer who is actually sensitive to the nature of the medium of animation then you really have nothing to be offende by. The John Kricfaluccis of the world can rave all they want, but if your a good writer and you know it then you know that you are the exception to the rule. Good writers should be the ones who are most offended by bad writers anyway because they make you look bad.<BR/>Heres a good test to guage if you are a bad writer or not: how closely does your final script draft resemble the finished cartoon? Did it require a lot of reworking or changes? A good cartoon script would be an accurate blueprint for the show. A bad one needs a lot of extra work (usually done by the artist).<BR/>Animation has become an assembly-line process and when someone in that assembly-line isnt pulling their weight, everyone else suffers. <BR/>If your part of the solution, then good for you. If your part of the problem, then you need to step up or step aside.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-7377351482404336682007-03-26T16:29:00.000-07:002007-03-26T16:29:00.000-07:00The fella that wrote --"That is exactly how their ...The fella that wrote --<BR/><BR/>"That is exactly how their idiotic scripts read to us and we shake our heads in disgust. It's why the scriptwriters are laughed at by artists. I don't know how these "writers" can walk down the same halls as the artists who know they've had their medium stolen from them and know what charlatans they are."<BR/><BR/>-- getting personal? I don't see it. Seems open minded to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-22125481563472527542007-03-26T16:18:00.000-07:002007-03-26T16:18:00.000-07:00Like I can stop him?Keep this in mind - I never pr...Like I can stop him?<BR/><BR/>Keep this in mind - I never pretend what I do is perfect, or the way I do things is the way things should be done.<BR/><BR/>It's just the way I do things.<BR/><BR/>I always am open to constructive criticism.<BR/><BR/>If it gets personal, that's where I start having problems.<BR/><BR/>How's that for an answer?Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17349670871562090251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-65634674661182549762007-03-26T15:22:00.000-07:002007-03-26T15:22:00.000-07:00So Steve, if he had say, one or more of your scrip...So Steve, if he had say, one or more of your scripts that had some of the typical problems in them, you would be okay with him posting them as examples?Vincent Wallerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03505903461868673973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-3262772181427562732007-03-26T14:45:00.000-07:002007-03-26T14:45:00.000-07:00Vincent; John has no problems posting actual R...Vincent;<BR/><BR/> John has no problems posting actual Roger Ramjet clips, or the written work of "how to" writers that he feels best make his case...<BR/><BR/> ...he just likes to cherry pick his targets, because it makes it easier to be a zealot.<BR/><BR/> In my opinion, of course.<BR/><BR/> - SteveStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17349670871562090251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-27543006065873083642007-03-26T14:29:00.000-07:002007-03-26T14:29:00.000-07:00He's not an artist, but he is a pretentious blowha...He's not an artist, but he is a pretentious blowhard.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-6368191801922365582007-03-26T11:32:00.000-07:002007-03-26T11:32:00.000-07:00Wait... Just a detail question here... Is it tru...Wait... Just a detail question here... Is it true that Stephen Worth isn't actually an artist?Eric Truehearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07355053181099911261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-86994459772901771722007-03-26T10:35:00.000-07:002007-03-26T10:35:00.000-07:00"Again - I think it is the creator of the show who..."Again - I think it is the creator of the show who gets to make that choice."<BR/><BR/>Steve<BR/>As I understand it, that is not the case. Everyone I've talked who's project has gone to pilot, have been paired with a writer. Not apparently presented as an option, but a given.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I agree that every executive in town knows that SpongeBob gained its success through the use of very talented storyboard writing teams and not scripts.<BR/><BR/><BR/>As to why John or anyone else have not stepped up to post examples of the problematic scripts and writers, is the fairly obvious legal constraints of doing so.Vincent Wallerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03505903461868673973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-37639562020929063342007-03-26T10:23:00.000-07:002007-03-26T10:23:00.000-07:00I've never seen so much wheel-spinning in my life....I've never seen so much wheel-spinning in my life. This argument has been going on forever and it never gets anywhere.<BR/>The bottome line is, script-driven shows are good when they're well-written. Board driven shows are good when they're well-boarded. Sometimes the two mix and when they do it's great. <BR/>Right now there seems to be a shortage of both good writers and good board artists which explains why pretty much every animated thing in existence (TV and features) is horrible right now.<BR/>Apart from "SOUTH PARK" I can't remember the last animated show that inspired a reaction in any way whatsoever.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-50104349680165483252007-03-25T17:07:00.000-07:002007-03-25T17:07:00.000-07:00I'm going to be posting a complete story by Warren...I'm going to be posting a complete story by Warren Foster from the Yogi Bear pilot over at the archive blog next week. I started scanning it yesterday, and it's a model of efficiency, clarity and entertainment value on a very tight budget. I'll let you know when I put it up.<BR/><BR/>See ya<BR/>SteveStephen Worthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01047366337202801862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-73262025472873734852007-03-25T11:45:00.000-07:002007-03-25T11:45:00.000-07:00Hey, thanks for the Link Steve! When I crack open ...Hey, thanks for the Link Steve! When I crack open my link box, I'll return the favor and add you too!<BR/>By the way, Reality shows irritate the piss out of me too. I like good writing in my TV. <BR/>Truthfully, I don't sit and grind my teeth at all writer driven animated shows, just at BAD animated shows. <BR/>I hate Family Guy. Do I hate it because it's writer driven? No, I hate it because it's derivative, shallow, ugly, and unfunny. <BR/>On the other hand, I love the Justice League where the writers and board artists seem to work close together.<BR/>My personal preference is to board from an outline, and write the dialogue on the boards. <BR/>But that's just how I roll.John S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03562963042584020477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-21179765479358952072007-03-24T17:17:00.000-07:002007-03-24T17:17:00.000-07:00Stephen; Misnomer - I meant I'll blog about the...Stephen;<BR/><BR/> Misnomer - I meant I'll blog about the non-drawing based <B> writing </B> process.<BR/><BR/> But I'm happy my late night brain fart gave you something you could sneer about.<BR/><BR/> - SteveStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17349670871562090251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-87925702406531238162007-03-24T16:01:00.000-07:002007-03-24T16:01:00.000-07:00All due respect, but what year are you writing thi...All due respect, but what year are you writing this from? Jeffery Scott hasn't had a credit on imdb in the last seven years. Add in your references to Cool World and Chipmunks and I wonder how much interaction you've had with current animation writers. As in the last 15 years.<BR/><BR/>Walt would probably hate many things about the way cartoons are made today, no doubt. Then again, he hated what he had to do in the late 50's when business realities forced him into his "meat and potato" phase. My hunch is had he lived to see the boom of TV animation, he would have been realistic about producing shows that begin in script as well as those that begin in board, as is the case at Disney today. <BR/><BR/>Truthfully, I'm not sure what you're even trying to accomplish. Do you praise shows that are board based like Sponge Bob, or do you take points off those for some other reason? In sheer raw hours, there's a lot more artist driven animation then there was back in the early days of Ren & Stimpy. Whether you actually like the shows and movies or not is another matter, of course. Do you or John lavish encouragement on the shows that are created and produced by artists or do you hit them with other, subordinate criticisms of the "ugly cal arts style" or of it being a Ren and Stimpy ripoff? <BR/><BR/>In all seriousnes, if John has written anything praising current shows or players in the industry outside of his circle, please post a link, because I'd love to read it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-16340436237636356112007-03-24T15:19:00.000-07:002007-03-24T15:19:00.000-07:00Strawman?You're acting as if the only proof John p...Strawman?<BR/><BR/>You're acting as if the only proof John put up to support his argument was that one book. He quoted extensively from Jeffrey Scott's book and put up examples of his script pages too. He's written at least six articles on the subject over the past year, all supported with examples.<BR/><BR/>He put up a video clip of Walt Disney and Walter Lantz saying that story men should draw their stories instead of writing them in words. Care to comment on the legitimacy of those two sources?<BR/><BR/><I>'ll blog about the non-drawing based art process- </I><BR/><BR/>I love funny dialogue! It's like the old George Carlin joke about the term "military intelligence" being a mutually exclusive concept.<BR/><BR/>See ya<BR/>SteveStephen Worthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01047366337202801862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-76301628667413724242007-03-24T13:47:00.000-07:002007-03-24T13:47:00.000-07:00Has he even interacted with an animation writer in...Has he even interacted with an animation writer in the last 15 years? Not that any are actually to eager to work with someone who has been on a decade long jihad aganst them.<BR/><BR/>It's sad that someone with such obvious talent and passion uses so much of it on straw men and scapegoats.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-57348734200116251422007-03-24T13:21:00.000-07:002007-03-24T13:21:00.000-07:00Of course he did.That's how he argues, and preache...Of course he did.<BR/><BR/>That's how he argues, and preaches to his choir. Who WOULDN'T look at that script and go "writers suck?"<BR/><BR/>Essentially he walks into a bathroom, scoops out a piece of crap, holds a turd up to his friends and goes "can you believe this turd?"<BR/><BR/>Yes. We get it. It's a turd. But you were fishing around a toilet. What did you expect to find?<BR/><BR/>Pfft.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17349670871562090251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-38641670281954578782007-03-24T13:13:00.000-07:002007-03-24T13:13:00.000-07:00Has anyone else seen John K.'s blog this weekend? ...Has anyone else seen John K.'s blog this weekend? He posted a bit from an awful animation script to point out, in a surprise twist, how awful animation writing is. <BR/><BR/>The problem is that it's NOT A REAL SCRIPT. It's from some woman who has written a million "How To" writing books, none of which look very well researched. It's about as honest as digging up some bad fan art on the net and using it to illustrate how artists suck.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-85117784185719604782007-03-24T00:56:00.000-07:002007-03-24T00:56:00.000-07:00This discussion is good (mostly). It's a pity tha...This discussion is good (mostly). It's a pity that there are so many who bitterly stew over this without participating in any sort of dialogue. I'm a story editor and sometimes a show runner, and believe me I've put in plenty of 80 hour weeks fixing other writers' crappy scripts to the point where I feel they're good enough to go to the artists. And honestly, it's not solely because I'm worried about the artists; I just hate bad storytelling. <BR/><BR/>Inept scripting doesn't only happen in animation -- it's a problem in live action too. I suspect it's more rampant in animation, though, which attracts a lot of novice writers who try cartoons out as a means of launching their careers and sitcom writers who are looking for a fall-back and assume cartoon writing is the same as concocting dialogue gags for Cousin Balki. This phenomenon isn't just the bane of artists; it's the bane of any good animation writer who cares about the quality of their work. <BR/><BR/>Regardless, the problem of incomprehensible scripting is one that should never befoul the artist. The buck stops at the show runner. I said it before and I'll say it again; if the show runner is doing his or her job then nothing but sound scripts should be handed to the artists.<BR/><BR/>So -- don't hate all of us just because some aren't doing their jobs. Frankly, though I admire what artists do and I love working with them, I've burned up plenty of late-night editing hours fixing shitty board panels, and even had a show sunk out from under me, in part thanks to mediocre boarding. Believe it or not, I have no urge to blame all artists. <BR/><BR/>Even if tomorrow all cartoon scripts magically started making sense, I know that still wouldn't make a lot of artists happy -- not by some of the comments I've seen. Script-driven cartoons look different and have fundamentally different story-telling dynamics than those that are written (yes, written) in the classic board-first method. But please. It's true; scripted shows are here to stay. There's too much animation on television for them not to. I respect the history of animation, and really enjoy traditionally made cartoons. The good ones. That's what matters to me -- is it good? Are the stories good? Are the characters engrossing? Am I entertained? Are the gags funny? Whether that's conveyed more through image, or through image with clever dialogue, it can all be good. Maybe not to some of you -- but millions of others would agree with me.<BR/><BR/>And as for artists complaining that writers get all the breaks pitching and running shows, I can say that I've encountered instances of the exact opposite. Often studio execs prefer to be pitched by artists. They'd much rather see funny designs and laugh their butts off at them than take the trouble to leaf through a bible or listen to a pitch without being about to see who you're talking about. Certainly at Cartoon Network and Nick I've run into that, and even at Disney, which has at least taken some steps lately to do more artist-driven stuff. <BR/><BR/>I say good for them.wurdhurlrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18083769623592557609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-62973121841718584622007-03-24T00:15:00.000-07:002007-03-24T00:15:00.000-07:00El Tigre also has two very strong writers with dis...El Tigre also has two very strong writers with distinctive voices on board. Maybe it works because it's an actual good balance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-91611742362737888182007-03-23T23:36:00.000-07:002007-03-23T23:36:00.000-07:00To Stephen (worth); The reason I use the term "...To Stephen (worth);<BR/><BR/> The reason I use the term "board based" is specifically the reason you use "board empowered" or "board unempowered."<BR/><BR/> Unempowered is a term of opinion, like pro-life and pro-choice.<BR/><BR/> Board-based, to me, is about what creative is the first step.<BR/><BR/> I'll blog about the non-drawing based art process - in my opinion, of course - when it's not so damn late.<BR/><BR/>Vincent & John:<BR/><BR/> Again - I think it is the creator of the show who gets to make that choice. El Tigre (I believe) trusts the highly competent board staff, under the direction of the incredibly talented Dave Thomas, to produce the show.<BR/><BR/> But I don't think there's an executive in town, in animation, that believes Spongebob works off of scripts. Whether they prefer scripts is another matter - but they know the process.<BR/><BR/> Chat atcha later...<BR/><BR/> - SteveStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17349670871562090251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-9846364466168232072007-03-23T23:25:00.000-07:002007-03-23T23:25:00.000-07:00Here's what I don't get about all the "all execs" ...Here's what I don't get about all the "all execs" talk: How can everybody ignore the fact that other than Disneytoons Studios, all of the animation efforts at Disney are being guided by artists, not just at Pixar and Pixar by proxy Disney Feature Animation, but at TV animation with the promotion of Mike Moon?<BR/><BR/>That's a pretty healthy chunk of American animation production. Why do all the rants seem to ignore this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8022653905840889580.post-8964679390588815552007-03-23T17:23:00.000-07:002007-03-23T17:23:00.000-07:00All the execs probably assume Sponge Bob is script...All the execs probably assume Sponge Bob is scripted.<BR/>Execs dogmatically require scripts out of ignorance. They assume that the only way to do a show is with a script. They know nothing of the animation process or it's history.John S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03562963042584020477noreply@blogger.com